I am a huge fan of Rusty Cooley so when I found this interview on Jack Mangan’s Deadpan podcast, I was like a kid in a candy store. It could easily be a feature interview in Guitar World magazine. Rusty talks about his band Outworld and their new self-titled CD, his influences, his picking technique, his 8-string Conklin guitar and his new signature Rusty Cooley 7-string guitar from Dean Guitars. Special thanks to Jack Mangan who conducted the original interview.
Jack Mangan: All right, Deadpan listeners. My guest this week is a guy named Rusty Cooley who if you have not heard of him or seen him play guitar, then you really are missing out. He’s been called, I believe, the seventh faster shredder in the world. He writes a column for Guitar Player Magazine. He plays incredibly fast and incredibly well and (he’s) got his band called Outworld. Thank you very much for being on Deadpan, Rusty.
Rusty Cooley: Thank you very much for having me, man. It’s very cool.
JM: Tell us a little bit about Outworld and what you guys have out there and what you guys are going to be doing in the near future.
RC: All right. Well, Outworld – we’re about to release our debut CD. It will be out on Nov. 13th on Replica Records. Very long, overdue, we’ve been to hell and back basically trying to get this CD out. (We’ve) been through bass players, drummers, and most recently, a singer, believe it or not. We’ve just parted ways with our singer, a guy named Kelly Carpenter. Kelly is actually on the CD that’s going to be released on the 13th, but things just didn’t work out and we had to let him go. We got a new guy on lead vocals, a guy named Carlos Zema. He’s from Brazil. I think he was voted like Brazil’s #1 metal singer. He’s actually in Outworld now. He’s our new lead singer and we’re currently working on new material for our next CD. Also, stylistically, the band is progressive metal. It’s really heavy stuff mixed in with a technical flavor and stuff like that.
JM: Now are you guys going to tour in support of the album?
RC: I don’t know, man. Like I’ve said, we’ve been through a lot of hell. We had to part ways with our singer. Because of this issue, I don’t know if we are going to be doing touring, any touring at all for this disc. The main thing for us is to get in there and get started on the next disc so we can get a better record deal and get out on tour. Sure, we’ll do some dates, but I just don’t think it’s going to be anything extensive, unfortunately.
JM: I see.
RC: I think finally, we have the right lineup. There’s only two original members left in the band now and that’s me and the keyboard player, a guy named Bobby Williamson. Our drummer is Matt (McKenna). He relocated in from Seattle. Our bass player is Shawn Kascak and he actually moved in from Georgia. In case you don’t know them, we’re all in Houston, Texas basically, the Woodlands.
JM: Now you have some tracks on your website. There’re some samples to download and actually I think a full version of one song. Is that Kelly on those tracks or is that a different vocalist?
RC: Kelly is on all of the stuff. Kelly sang on the demo. Kelly sang on the album so all of the stuff is Kelly. If you go to Outworld’s Myspace, you can actually hear a couple of tracks of the new singer singing with his old band. We just kind of put that up there to give the fans a taste of what Carlos’ voice sounds like. One listen to this guy’s voice and you have no doubt that he’s more than a great replacement.
JM: Okay, well, so then there’s a happy ending to the story. It’s a rough story, but at least there’s a happy ending. You got someone really good.
RC: Oh, yeah, man. It’s been rough. We’ve been through three or four drummers and bass players…
JM: Well, best of luck in the future with that. It seems to be that way with bands rotating members, but best of luck in the future with that and I definitely hope you can get on the road sometime soon…
RC: Definitely know that we will. We got, I can’t mention any names right now, but we got interest from some big labels that get their bands out on the road and tours and do it the right way. We’re hard at work on our next material so we can pick up something… (where) they can get us out to a wider audience.
JM: The sound is, you never want to compare yourself to other bands, but you mentioned before that it is progressive metal so you get people thinking like Yngwie Malmsteen, Dream Theater, that kind of thing with a lot of harmonic minor scale.
RC: Uhm. Well, you definitely have the technical playing in there like Yngwie and Dream Theater and stuff like that, but it’s a little bit heavier. It’s more on the heavy side. There’s a bit of neoclassical stuff in there, but the direction we’re going is definitely putting that stuff to the side. I mean, we listen to bands like Lamb of God, and Nevermore, and Unearth, and Soilwork, and Meshuggah and that’s the kind of stuff that I’m into and that’s the direction my writing is going while maintaining the progressive and lots of the shredding elements.
JM: Sure. Nevermore has, I can’t think of the guy’s name off hand, but their guitar player is phenomenal.
RC: Yeah, Jeff Loomis, he’s the guitar player for Nevermore. He’s a buddy of mine – a total shredder, man, and a great guy too.
JM: Yeah, a great riffer, too. One thing about (heavy music) is that people kind of tend to view the players and the music as sort of one-dimensional, but I see your roots. It says in your bio that you were torn between going into the jazz or classical fields.
RC: Yeah, absolutely, when I was in high school when I was younger, I was lucky enough…I’m not really sure how I ended up going in so many directions. One of my first and biggest guitar influences was Randy Rhoads and he always talked about classical music in his interviews and so that got me interested in classical music at an early age and I took theory in high school. Of course, that opened me up to a lot of classical stuff and I was also into jazz and fusion and funk and listened to country guitar players and you know, the whole nine yards. For me, it was just about good music, irregardless of what it was labeled.
JM: Right.
RC: Good music is good music. You know what I’m saying?
JM: Yeah.
RC: I would go from studying jazz to classical to full-out metal and all that stuff so in the end it wasn’t a difficult decision because my roots (are) rock n’ roll. What I’ve tried to do is take all my influences from the different directions and channel them all into what I do. So it is a lot of heavy music, but it’s not a bunch of just meandering around and noodling, you know? Songwriting comes first. It’s about writing a good song and then, putting all the spicy playing in there is the icing on the cake – after the fact, not what the song is based on. And there’s a lot of dynamics into it. The Outworld CD – I think for most the people that are aware of my guitar playing from my instrumental CD, when they hear the Outworld disc, it’s going to be a big change for them because on my instrumental stuff, it was just all about me pushing it as hard as I could push it and just really shredding as much as I could. Outworld is a totally different thing so I’m hoping to gain some more fan base that way, but that’s just the difference in me playing solo stuff and me playing a guitar player in a band. There’re totally different things and I keep them separate.
JM: Will you still put out some solo – Satriani, Vai-esque releases?
RC: You know what? Right now, I’m not planning on it because Outworld, my band, it allows me to do whatever I want so I really don’t have the need to do any outside stuff like guitar albums. Maybe I will someday do another one, but my focus right now is one hundred percent on the band and getting it out there and going to the next level and being successful in the band.
JM: You’ve touched on something that I wanted to bring up. I’ve seen you play. I can’t imagine how there could be six people that were significantly faster.
RC: You know, it’s funny you mentioned that. That’s what everybody says (laughs). Recently, I was featured in Guitar One in an article. I think it was called Return of the Shred or something like that and they actually mentioned in there that I have since moved up the list, but they didn’t mention how far.
JM: (laughs) Okay.
RC: So I am moving up. I don’t know where to. That’s pretty funny.
JM: Now you hear a lot of times, I guess the backlash, which is probably mostly out of people who are jealous that they can never play that fast. You hear this always whenever anyone talks about any shredder whether it be Malmsteen or anyone. They say “Oh well, that’s just noodling. That’s just a million notes per second. That’s not melodic. That’s just noise.” You always hear all this stuff like people say, “how about doing a soulful bend and that kind of stuff?” What’s your reaction to that, and obviously, you’ve said it’s all about the melody. It’s not just about wanking and throwing a thousand notes out per second.
RC: Exactly, it’s not. I think everything has its place and going back to Outworld versus the instrumental stuff, it’s like I said, when I’m doing solo guitar stuff, I mean solo guitar. I think that says enough. It’s about playing radical stuff or whatever you view as solo guitar. My view of instrumental guitar is totally different than Steve Vai or Joe Satriani or any of those guys because when I’m writing instrumental guitar stuff, I want it to be just in-your-face. It’s about the guitar pushing it to the far extreme. One of my classical influences is Niccolò Paganini. He has this set of Caprices – the 24 Caprices for solo violin. It’s just the sickest stuff that’s still like friggin’ untouchable for the most part.
JM: Yeah, the John Williams rendition of number 24. It just blows my mind every time I hear it.
RC: Yeah, and that to me is what I want to do when I’m playing instrumental guitar. Just friggin’…I’m trying to push it to the far extreme limits. When I was growing up, I was listening to guys like Paul Gilbert and Yngwie Malmsteen and I was trying to re-create the feeling for my listeners that I got when I heard Malmsteen and Gilbert and those guys which when I was kid listening to that stuff, it was just like…death-defying, stunt guitar playing, unattainable, how the hell am I ever going to do that kind of playing, you know? That’s what I was trying to do. Just push it as far as I could and make the most extreme guitar record. That was my goal. It wasn’t to play a bunch of memorable, hummable, singable, danceable melodies.
JM: Right.
RC: As long as you know that going into listening to the CD, then you’re going to be all right, but if you’re one of these guys that wants to hear somebody play with the feeling and bending the note, then my disc is definitely not the CD for you. There’s always nay-sayers. Someone’s always got something bad to say. As an artist, you just got to learn to let that roll right off your back, you know? I’m doing what I want to do because that’s the way I like to play. If you sit around and worry about what everybody else is going to think, then you’re never going to write a song because you’re always going to be changing it because you’re going to (think), “oh this guy might say this about it”. You can’t worry. It’s like classical music. Back in the day, I forgot the exact situation, but Mozart was writing something and the emperor told him there was too many notes and he asked him, “which ones would you like me to remove?” It’s in the eye of the beholder. Listen to what you want to hear. That’s how I listen to music. Depending on what I’m in the mood for, I put on that style of music. If I want to hear more laidback stuff, I’m not going to be listening to shred guitar. Pick what you want. If you don’t like it, move on. That’s the big thing. So many people get on your website, get on the Internet, and just blast the crap out of people on why this guy sucks or this guy is better than that guy. It’s like you know what? Everybody’s different. Leave it alone if you don’t like it. Again, listen to something else. It’s amazing to me how many people can sit for hours behind a computer and just badmouth other people. If those guys that were badmouthing other people were at home practicing, then maybe they wouldn’t be so consumed with what everybody else was doing.
JM: Yes. Exactly. Right. Actually, that’s a good segue. I wanted to bring up. I know you do teaching. I know that you are a teacher. Obviously, of course, technique and theory is very critical to developing a style where you can play. I mean anyone – a monkey can play a thousand notes per second, but you’re able to apply your knowledge and theory and make it very listenable and make it very melodic, even with the fast shredding. Tell us a little bit about how to get there and also the practice regimen.
RC: Well, it’s a lot of…there you go. It’s a lot of practice (laughs). Live, eat, sleep, and breathe guitar, man. If you want to get to that level of playing, you have to spend a lot of time doing it. You have to woodshed. You have to spend an equal amount of time on theory and technique and then applying it to creativity which is making music with it. As a guitarist, you need to master technique which is alternate picking, economy picking, sweep picking, tapping, the whole gamut of techniques and you need to understand your chords and theory and how harmony works so that you can apply the technique there and hopefully make some good music with it. I think the two areas combined are very important. One scenario is that you could be a musical genius, but if you don’t have the technique to pull it off, no one’s ever going to be able to tell. So you got to have the chops. You don’t want to be limited by your physical ability. There’s nothing worse.
JM: I would say you’re probably at least three times, maybe four times faster than me so that’s probably me on guitar. If we were to have a race, I think you would beat me by a…
RC: I don’t know man (laughs).
JM: (laughs)
RC: It’s fun. I love to play and I love to play fast. I think it’s just part of who I am. I think it has a lot to do with people’s personalities. I raced motocross for years and bicycles and stuff like that and I like to drive my car fast. It’s just fun. It’s what turns me on when I listen to other guitar players – not just nonsense fast stuff, but good speed. Listen to Paul Gilbert and listen to Malmsteen and Shawn Lane and Allan Holdsworth and guys like that. Those dudes are monster players. They have great technique and can rip it up. And they do it in a great way. It’s just not nonsense rambling of notes with no point or purpose.
JM: Yeah, I agree and I’m not just floating your boat because you’re here. Your stuff is absolutely very melodic. I love that style, like Black Star by Malmsteen. That stuff is just fantastic.
RC: Absolutely. That’s the stuff I grew up on, man. The first time I heard Black Star was on a…I don’t know if you remember this. You’re probably too young. Years ago, Guitar Player magazine used to have this little sound disc that came with it. It wasn’t a disc. It was a little floppy .45. It came with that and a transcription of the song and I’ve got my Guitar Player magazine and ripped out the little floppy record and threw it on my turntable and that was the first thing I heard from Malmsteen off of Rising Force and it was awesome.
JM: Wow.
RC: As a matter-of-fact, that’s the first place I first heard Vai. Vai had one of those little sound pages for the Attitude Song which is totally smokin’. You’re familiar with that, right?
JM: I’ve actually seen him do that live on the G3 Tour. It was nuts.
RC: That’s great stuff, especially when he gets two other guys out there playing with him doing the harmony stuff. All that’s crazy…very innovative playing, man. When Vai came out, there was nobody really like him either, except for Satch who hadn’t actually emerged yet.
JM: Vai just completely blows me away, but Satriani to me is probably how I got into guitar music. I was listening to Joe Satriani before I was playing guitar, actually.
RC: Ah, cool, man.
JM: I would say he was probably my gateway. I still see him every time he comes around. He’s just phenomenal.
RC: Absolutely, man. Me, too. I always try to go out and see those guys. I wish I could have seen G3 with Malmsteen on it. It skipped right by Houston so I didn’t get to see that show. Definitely, all three of those guys, especially Malmsteen are some of my biggest influences – Satch, Vai, Malmsteen, Gilbert, definitely Gilbert, a lot. I love the way he picked. All that early Racer X stuff is just sick.
JM: I wanted to bring that up – just from watching your YouTube stuff and the way you pick. When I tend to hold my pick, this is probably getting technical for some of my non- guitar listeners, I just kind of pinch the pick. Now, you don’t hold it that way. It’s almost not on your thumb at all. It’s almost on your knuckle.
RC: Yeah, right in the joint. You know what I’m saying?
JM: Yeah.
RC: Yeah, it’s definitely nothing I ever set out to do. It’s just something that happened out of necessity. If you noticed when you watch me doing some of the picking, you probably notice that I pick pretty close to the bridge whereas a lot of guitar players don’t pick that close to the bridge. The reason I do this is I play .09 gauge strings and I tune down a half step. The string tension is a little bit looser than it would be with .09’s tuned standard. By picking closer to the bridge, you get more string tension. The closer you get to the neck, the floppier the string gets, right?
JM: Right.
RC: So the closer you get to the bridge, the tighter the tension gets, and the tighter the tension you have, the better for your alternate picking because there’s less give. You get attack. As soon as you pick, you hear the note and there’s no give and it stays really tight and focused so I’ll scooch back when I’m picking really fast and the pick starts to gravitate back there. I don’t know why. It feels really balanced there. I don’t pick everything from there. It just ends up there. It never seems like I can get my hand back far enough.
JM: I saw a video of you sitting down playing and you’re holding it not across your lap, but the way a classical guitar player holds a guitar between their legs. I guess that’s why you hold it in that position then?
RC: For the picking? Well, no actually, I sit in that position for my left hand because I do a lot of wide stretching stuff beyond your diatonic scales, your regular three upper string stuff. I’ll do three-note per string pentatonics and four-note per string scales and that gets to be some pretty wide stretches with your left hand and by keeping the guitar on my left leg, it actually brings the guitar up a little bit closer to me and takes the pressure off my wrist which allows me to stretch easier and more comfortably. That’s actually left hand-based. I can pick the same on either leg, but I definitely can’t play all that crazy stuff with the guitar sitting on my right leg. I just can’t stretch that far. It’s impossible because when your guitar is sitting on your right leg, that brings your wrist down really far. You have to bend your wrist and bring it around. I know it’s kind of hard to really understand what I’m talking about without seeing it, but you can’t do it with the guitar that low. That’s another good point. That’s why I also, when I’m standing up, my guitar is pretty high because the lower the guitar is strung, the more it puts your wrist in a position that will not allow you to stretch your fingers beyond four frets. That’s why most of the guys that play with the guitar strung really low are playing bluesy pentatonic kind of licks. There’s only a couple of guitar players that actually string their guitars pretty low that can do some pretty sick stuff and Paul Gilbert’s one of them. That dude has them really low and he can play the three-note per string pentatonic stuff. I don’t know. It might have something to do with him being like 6’4 or something like that (laughs), but I’m like 5’8 and it ain’t happening.
JM: When you talk about guys who just wear the guitar really low, I think of Hetfield who’s a fantastic rhythm guitar player, often called the best in the world, but he’s not a shredder by any means.
RC: Right. Yeah, that’s true. He’s a really great player, man.
JM: Now before we wrap it up, I did want to ask about something that seems to be unique about you. I haven’t really seen any other guys outside of jazz use the 8-string guitar with the slanted frets. Tell us a little about that.
RC: Yeah. That guitar is my Conklin 8-string and that guitar is strung high A to low B. The fretboard is what we call a multi-scale fretboard. The reason you have that is because of the high A string. Now, you understand what I mean by multi-scale?
JM: No, actually. Can you tell us?
RC: There’s generally two standard scale lengths and I’m not positive on this, but what I think it is, you measure from the nut to the bridge and from the nut to the bridge, you have a Fender scale which is 25 ½ and then you have a Gibson scale. I think it is 25. I’m not positive on the Gibson scale. I know it’s shorter than the Fender scale. What you do with the multi-scale fretboard is on the low B side of the neck, it’s 25 ½ like a Fender scale and on the high A side of the fretboard, it’s 23 ½ so it’s really short so that means the distance from the nut to the bridge is that much shorter. By shortening the length of the scale, it allows you to tune an .08 gauge string all the way up to A. If you try to tune an .08 gauge string to A on a Fender or a Gibson scale fretboard, if you did anything other than touch it, it would snap. You can imagine the tension on that, right? It’s bad enough trying to play an .08 gauge tuned to E. Anyone that plays .08’s, if you can imagine tuning that thing all the way up to A…
JM: Doesn’t Yngwie play with .08’s?
RC: Yngwie does play with .08s. That’s crazy. I don’t know how he does it. Actually, I know why he does it. At least this is what I think I read somewhere. He plays .08’s on the first three strings because his Strat only has 21 frets and by playing that lighter gauge string, it allows him to do bends up to 24 more easily. But on the bottom three, the D, A, and low E string, they’re like .10’s so he mixes a pack of .08’s with .10’s. So the low strings still have the tension and heaviness and the high – 1st, 2nd, and 3rd allow him to do all that extreme bending.
RC: For just people who don’t know, by .08, it’s really thin. If your fingers aren’t tough, you might need stitches for sliding your fingers up an .08 gauge string.
RC: (laughs) Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever used 08’s. I mean I use an .08 for my high A string, but that’s about it. The frets on the angle only have to do with the fact that there is an A string on the guitar. It doesn’t have anything to do with playability or anything like that. It’s just so you can have the A. As a matter-of-fact, I think the Ibanez Universe was originally supposed to have a high A on it, but they could never get it out of the factory because every time Vai would grab the (whammy) bar, the string would break. Rumor has it, I don’t know this for a fact, but I know it was originally supposed to have a high A string and it just didn’t work because like I said earlier, you can’t a tune a string like that and keep it from breaking. I think Michael Angelo actually had a 7-string guitar before Vai that he used on the original Nitro video and I think he said he used to use a .06 or .07 gauge banjo string for the high A string, but with that length of the scale fretboard, it just doesn’t work. The multi-scale fretboard, I think in fact, was invented by Ralph Novak from Novax Guitars. Conklin and anybody else has to license it from them. To come to use that, it’s a patent thing. I also have another 8-string guitar. It’s strung high E to low F#. That guitar has a 27 inch or 27 ½, I think, scale fretboard so it’s longer to compensate for the lower bass string on it for really deep, low-end stuff like Meshuggah. Those guys are great. If you haven’t heard them, check them out. Really, really heavy stuff. I don’t know if you can handle those kind of vocals. I don’t know what you’re used to listening to.
JM: (laughs)
RC: If you’re not used to listening to those type of vocals, it’s definitely something you’ll have to get adjusted to, but the music is so freakin’ awesome you eventually just start to tune it out if it’s not your taste, you know what I mean?
JM: Really good, listenable music will always suck me in. The cookie monster stuff – that just kind of goes with it.
RC: Yeah, absolutely. Those guys, not to get off on a whole other subject, those guys are so rhythmically insane. There’re not that many bands when I listen to them…sometimes I just don’t know what the hell I’m hearing. It’s so complex sometimes. It’s like whatever, man (laughs). I just stopped trying to analyze it and just listen. They do all kinds of crazy polyrhythmic stuff. It’s just pretty sick.
JM: Now to wrap things up here and also for the benefit of some of my non-guitar player listeners who don’t have any idea of what we’re talking about. Now, obviously you are a busy guy. I know you have a family and everything. You teach and have the band. Obviously, you need to practice to maintain that level of playing ability. How do you make all this stuff fit into a 24-hour day?
RC: Uhmm. Well. It’s really crazy. I’ll tell you that much. It’s actually gotten a little easier as of this school year that just started. It’s the first time in eleven years that I haven’t had one of my kids at home that I had to take care of and try to practice. My youngest is now in 1st grade. She goes all day. Now I have a little bit more time than I had before to practice. Over the last eleven years, it was a total juggling act trying to find time in between taking care of the kiddos and running errands, running the household, paying the bills, going to get groceries and crap like that, and rehearsing with the band and trying to practice. You just have to do it. I can’t really give you a definitive answer to that. You just have to get in and make time and do it. If you’re used to sitting around watching TV and sitting on the computer and playing video games and crap like that, you’re never going to get your chops up to where they need to be because then you won’t have no time to play. You got to try to get in and get organized and make it happen.
JM: All right.
RC: I don’t think that was really a good answer (laughs). You just have to do it. It’s kind of like when I was in high school. I went from being one of the popular kids to being that guy that plays guitar because when I started playing guitar, I mean that was it. It was all over. I stopped hanging out. I stopped going out. My parents freaked out. It was like sit in my room, send meals to my room and I played guitar and that was it. I would just become obsessed with music and guitar and becoming a good guitar player. Everything else becomes secondary. When you have a family, a job, and a career and all that to balance, everything else has to be second – all the extracurricular activities, you know what I mean? You got to do your job as a dad and a husband and still get in there and kick ass on guitar and make it work.
JM: That’s a great answer, man. Good luck with Outworld and with your playing and everything else that you have going on. Thanks for being on the show and if there’s anything else you want to plug or just kind of hype, here’s your chance.
RC: Sure. Sure. Awesome. For those of you that are guitar players out there, I am now endorsing Dean Guitars and I have the Rusty Cooley 7-string Signature Model that’s going to be released in January ‘07. If you’re a 7-string player or thinking about becoming a 7-string player, that is the guitar for you. I designed it from the ground up and it’s built for performance and it will be the 7-string that all other 7-strings are compared to. The Outworld CD will be out Nov. 13th so go check it out and rock on, man.
Source:
www.jackmangan.com/2006/11/09/jack-mangans-deadpan-32-shreddin-with-rusty-cooley/
Links related to interview:
http://www.rustycooley.com
http://www.myspace.com/rustycooley
http://www.deanguitars.com/rusty_cooley.php
http://www.outworldband.com
http://www.myspace.com/outworld